From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) (clbullar_at_ingr.com)
Date: 19 June 1998
Hi Alan:
First, I enjoyed Why We Die tremendously. My thoughts when rating the worlds for VRML98 centered around who was making the best use of VRML without having to go too far into Java to get it to work. WWD demonstrated effective story and camera work plus fantastic economy of device. The morphing was excellent and the use of the text windows with font changes for emphasis was elegant.
That said, I think before we can get very deep into non-linear or interactive fiction, we should look at how that would be implemented. While we can think of many comparisons in theatre and movies, we still must conceive how basic devices can be achieved. The linear movie paradigm is easy enough because we all understand basic animation to a reasonable degree. But when we look at non-linear or IF, we have to go deeper into character simulation.
So I pose a question to the list: how would you represent a character as an object with methods? IOW, we should understand how a story is created by a user whose interactions are limited by the methods of the objects with which they interact. What are the basic messages a character object must serve?
Method in madness of question: if we had a method protocol for characters, we might be able to go beyond our stories to a world of stories where characters can enter new stories for which they weren't designed originally.
This is dangerously close to the kind of thing some had in mind for TerraVista, but perhaps it is time to revisit that epoch and ask if it is possible to build characters that can free-roam.
Len Bullard
Intergraph Public Safety
clbullar_at_ingr.com
Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti.
Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h
> -----Original Message-----
> From: alan taylor [SMTP:yoame_at_wolfenet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 10:53 PM
> To: vrml-lit-list_at_kith.org
> Subject: Re: Some good links
>
> I've been following this thread and find it all fascinating. I kept
> trying
> to think of ways to make "Why we die" more interactive, and less of a
> movie, but
> I couldn't think of much that didn't take away from the aesthetic I was
> going
> for. I guess that's partially because it's based on a story that was told
> as
> creation fact, and didn't really have a lot of room for the listener to
> make
> choices or alterations.
>
> For my next story, I'm still more or less 'pushing' the viewer through
> the
> storyline using a lot of cinematic paradigms, but I thought I might
> '"leave the
> theater door open" after it's over, if people want to have a stroll
> through
> backstage and see the sets and actors. It's soooo much harder to
> choreograph
> movement if there's a chance that viewers will be in x,y,z coords outside
> of
> your control, then everything has to be exact, no fudging or forcing
> perspective.
>
> I'd like to know, outside of games, what interactive story experiences
> people have had - live shows, online, VRML, whatever -- I'm just curious
> what's
> been successfully done, and what sorts of problems or fun have been
> encountered.
>
> I'm still trying to convince myself that an interactive story can be
> as
> compelling as the best linear narrative, and have to admit I'm still
> teetering
> toward linear (likely because of weight of experience in linear stories).
>
> -AT
>
> Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael St. Hippolyte [SMTP:mash_at_trapezium.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 12:46 PM
> > > To: vrml-lit-list_at_kith.org
> > > Subject: RE: Some good links
> > >
> > > Len wrote:
> > > >Viewpoints are story devices.
> > > >
> > > >The application of story devices depend on the driver of a scene
> > > >(that is, why is the scene being presented and how does it advance
> the
> > > >plot).
> > >
> > > I would agree and add that you could boil down interactive fiction as
> > > differing from the traditional variety merely in the particular
> devices
> > > available. In addition to close ups, establishing shots, flashbacks,
> etc.
> > > you have a few other ones corresponding to the navigation options
> > > presented
> > > to the audience (free roaming, select a character to follow,
> controlled
> > > exploration along specific paths, etc.)
> > [Bullard, Claude L (Len)]
> >
> > Yes... but... you also have some things a movie or book doesn't
> > have: persistent
> > memory and object loading because movies and books are
> essentially
> > bound media. Dynamic media corresponds closer to live theatre
> in
> > the
> > ability to add and remove props, respond to audience applause,
> etc.
> >
> > What vr-lit adds is the *cheap* ability to do this while defying
> > physics.
> >
> > > We're nowhere near having a vocabulary for such devices, let alone an
> > > exhaustive list of them.
> > >
> > [Bullard, Claude L (Len)]
> >
> > Which is one of the reasons we are here. We are spawning
> vocabulary
> > as
> > we learn to talk about our ideas. Remember when you did the
> glyphs
> > for
> > navigating TerraVista? While that idea didn't go far at the
> time,
> > the use
> > of a set of unified signposts based on glyphs works fine. I
> noted
> > in the
> > IF pages I've read that the genre has spawned symbols for say,
> > magic.
> > So it is my hope we will do some of this too.
> >
> > > Is it possible that traditional cinematic devices
> > > will turn out to have nonlinear equivalents? Might there be such a
> thing
> > > as an interactive closeup as distinct from an interactive establishing
> > > shot?
> > >
> > [Bullard, Claude L (Len)] I think it is the case. What gets
> lost
> > in
> > the discussions of non-linearity is that it is a quality of
> > presentation,
> > not an absolute of organization. The distinguishing
> characteristic
> > of non-linear systems of any kind is emergence. Events,
> properties,
> >
> > etc. can emerge spontaneously or at least, be non-authored. On
> > the other hand, non-linear organization is not absolute in that
> some
> >
> > parts of the sequences are linear (eg, must go through set up).
> > So within predictable linear sequences in an overall non-linear
> or
> > at least complex set of traversals, we still need and can
> > effectively
> > use the traditional cinematic devices.
> >
> > > >If the user is more interactive, then the problems
> > > >of viewpoint are much more severe because without the
> > > >context of establishing them in the scene, the user won't
> > > >acquire intuition about actions to perform. So, I guess
> > > >if we had to do it over again and not break the plot, I would
> > > >have to invent a character such as Ishmael who is at
> > > >every important event logically. However, once done,
> > > >then certain time-saving plot advancing tricks are harder
> > > >to do. Eg, the scenes where a character is reflecting
> > > >mentally on a subject (Jeanie worries about the Captain)
> > > >aren't logical (how would Ishmael know what Ahab is
> > > >thinking unless he is guessing or being told).
> > >
> > > This is a good argument for devising a way of mixing different
> approaches.
> > >
> > [Bullard, Claude L (Len)]
> >
> > Yes. Half the art is being inventive and knowing how to do this
> > without the boilerplate sticking out all over. I failed
> miserably
> > at
> > that in IS. The saving graces are the accents of the speakers
> which
> >
> > distract the user (misdirected attention is the lesser power of
> > magic),
> > and the excellent graphics of the team which Paul pulled up to
> > professional quality. Sometimes pulling a rabbit out of the hat
> > depends on a blindfolded audience.
> >
> > > You could for example invent some sort of convincing literary device
> to
> > > segue smoothly between interactive and cinematic POV's (then the rest
> of
> > > us
> > > could promptly borrow it from you :)
> > >
> > [Bullard, Claude L (Len)] Again, I think the devices are there
> and
> > we
> > aren't noticing. I brought up the store commercials the other
> day
> > in which a moving camera sees several groups engaged in
> conversation
> >
> > while in motion. The camera switches from one group to the next
> as
> > they pass each other in the store. This is an excellent device
> for
> > setups and has equivalents in theatre setups where a dance
> number
> > features several singers who move on and off the stage during a
> > dance/song number. It makes an interesting PROTO: camera
> tracks
> > motion
> > of moving group by center, and must switch the group center
> > based on some parameter (eg, first conversation ends) and turn
> > onto that new center without apparent motion. That's a
> challenging
> > PROTO to write.
> >
> > If you are referring to POV as Character (iow, first, second,
> third
> > person),
> > then I think they are the same for VR as for any other story.
> Or is
> > that
> > true? Passive vs Active? Subject vs object? Hmm. Food for
> > thought.
> >
> > len
>
>
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